Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Dialoguing on South Asia, we explore the lives of its people, hear their stories and the histories of the land, discover its beauty and encounter its conflicts, complexities, and harmonies in a search for liberty, peace and prosperity. Interacting with leaders, activists, academics, and common folk from the south asian sphere about their work and their passions, their dreams and their life journeys, their immigrant experiences, advocacy efforts, religion, politics, and so much more. With this, your host, journalist and author, Peter Friedrich. Hand in hand, we meet and stand with South Asia. This is Dosa.
Welcome to the show. And today we are privileged to be able to speak with Doctor Samantha Agarwal from the School of International Service at American University in Washington, DC. And, Samantha, I apologize for that inadvertent accent on your name, but I'm so glad to host you here. And how are you doing today?
[00:01:05] Speaker B: I'm doing great. Thanks so much for having me with me. Having me with you.
I actually do go by Samantha when I'm in India, because in Hindi, Samantha means equality. So it's quite convenient for my politics.
[00:01:21] Speaker A: Well, then I feel that I can move on from that inadvertent faux pas and to a little bit of getting to know you and letting our audience get to know about you. So you're a political scientist, a sociologist. You've done work on the ground, in the field in India. And we're going to be talking about this new report which you've written about in a recent article, this report on hindu nationalism in America.
But before that, wanted to talk a little bit about you and ask you, in a few words, if somebody. In a few words from you, if somebody were to ask you this question, can you tell us, Samantha, what is your deal?
[00:02:09] Speaker B: Well, as you said, I'm a sociologist. I'm currently a postdoc at american university. And my academic work is broadly on the rise of hindu nationalism. And I study, in particular, how hindu nationalism is being refracted in India's caste system. So how the hindu nationalists are using caste, or these longstanding disparities based on caste, to advance its agenda, and also, simultaneously, how the hindu nationalists are recruiting people who are at the bottom of the caste ladder, people who have historically been oppressed by hindu nationalism and by the ruling hindu nationalists movement and parties.
So that's my sort of academic work.
And I think, as you know, I, before I started the journey to earn my PhD and research this stuff as a job, I was working in the people's movement in India. So I was kind of working with organizations and movements that were advancing the rights of indigenous people, or adivasis particularly to land and opposing things like forcible land grabs and land dispossession of indigenous people.
[00:03:36] Speaker A: So that was.
I want to ask you a little bit more about that in a minute here, Samantha, but just out of curiosity, I speak with people India who are from all backgrounds. My understanding is you're actually a second generation Indian American. But where actually in India does your family hail from?
[00:04:01] Speaker B: Yeah, I grew up in Columbus, Ohio, and both of my parents are from West Bengal. My mother was from Kolkata, and my father was from a small town outside of Kolkata called Shantanukitan, and they came to the US about 50 years ago. So, yeah, we're very much rooted here. But as I mentioned, I kind of. After I finished my undergraduate degree at Ohio state, I decided to sort of to go and live in India for several years. And so, yeah, I've also kind of lived there and experienced life in India as well.
[00:04:41] Speaker A: Can you tell us, as we unpack that a little bit about your work in India? I understood you spent about five years there initially. What was it really that pulled you into going over there to do your work there?
[00:04:57] Speaker B: Yeah, it's an interesting story.
I, in fact, didn't plan to work in India.
I was planning to go to law school after I finished my undergraduate degree.
Things took an unexpected turn when I decided to enroll in the undergraduate research program at Ohio state in the political science department. I decided to do an honors thesis, and I got a grant to go to India and just do research. And I had no idea what I was doing when I first went over there.
But a series of questions sort of led me to looking at one particular movement that was being waged by small farmers, largely women and largely Dalits, or people from the most marginalized caste community.
[00:05:48] Speaker A: Traditionally known as outcasts.
[00:05:51] Speaker B: Exactly. Yeah. And the term of self identification is Dalits.
And so, you know, I was looking at this movement, which was really monumental at the time. It was, these women were opposing a land grab by multinational corporations, largely pharmaceutical companies, in a village in Andhra Pradesh, or now Telangana, which is kind of.
[00:06:21] Speaker A: Central eastern India, isn't it?
[00:06:24] Speaker B: Southern. Yeah, southern India.
And I went and lived in this village and observed the farmers resistance. And I was. I was really inspired, you know, by particularly, like, how.
How militant and fearless these women were.
One of the things I observed them talking about and. And recalling was like when the. The land surveyors first came to assess whether they could, you know, take this land from these people without their consent. The women who were. Who were actually traditionally chile farmers, they. They fashioned a.
A pepper spray kind of thing out of the local chilis and based these land surveyors out of their village. And it was so, I mean, just hearing them talk about this, like, it really made me realize, like, how much was at stake and how much these people were really fighting for their lives. And I had never seen any kind of, like, movement like that in the US. And I also. It also just kind of awakened me to how much, you know, transnational capital, some of which was originating in the US, was so harmful and detrimental and dispossessing these people's lives and communities. So I was really inspired by that. And to make a long story short, I decided I wanted to go back.
After I finished that project, I decided I want to go back to India and really just understand this larger landscape in which this movement was situated and meet organizers and learn from them. And I essentially kind of just traveled for some time, meeting different groups and organizations were kind of like this women's movement, but different in different ways in different regions. There's different kinds of dispossession going on.
Yeah, I ended up with indigenous led groups who are really kind of at the forefront of the movement against forcible land dispossession and land degradation and ecocide, as some people put it.
[00:08:44] Speaker A: And so, of course, this is not the gist of our main topic, but on this, your work in India, two things, I think. One is when you were doing this work, where you were documenting and did you produce something as you went along the way or as an outcome of this? And then the other is just for the sake of our listeners, since you've done so much work with the indigenous people who are sometimes, I think, for the western or the western mind, more commonly known as tribals in. In India, they're oftentimes called Adabasi people.
Can you briefly lay out what is the situation of the Adabasi people or the indigenous people in comparison to the rest of the indian population?
[00:09:39] Speaker B: Yeah, well, to answer your first question, yeah, I did end up producing a research paper and an article that it was published a couple of years ago, and that sort of chronicles the movement and also the kind of outcomes that were produced after. Unfortunately, this farmers movement that I mentioned was defeated, and the land was acquired by these multinational corporations, and then the special economic zone in which they were a part of was established. And so I kind of, when I started grad school, I decided I wanted to go back to that village that I studied when I was an undergraduate and kind of document the long term outcomes of this mass land transfer and the establishment of pharmaceutical manufacturing in the region.
I have an article. I can share that with you.
And then, as I mentioned later, I went and started working with indigenous peoples movements. And that was less of an academic project and more. I was.
[00:10:52] Speaker A: I was trying to project the passion.
[00:10:55] Speaker B: Exactly. Yeah, project of passion. But. But mostly, like, I wanted to understand what they were doing and. And see if there were ways in which I could, could meaningfully contribute to their movements. And. And so I ended up doing, you know, basically whatever was asked of me. And that. And, you know, I found that. I found out very quickly that one of the.
One of the big needs that exists in a lot of these movement spaces is just documentation, sharing information, either legal information or policy related information that can be utilized by local activists to leverage their cause. And so I ended up doing, actually a lot of legal work documenting legal violations by the corporations that were trying to take people's land and take ancestral forest away. And then we were also leveraging.
There's a law, a national law in India called the Forest Rights act. It was passed in 2006, and it was actually a product of an indigenous movement, like indigenous people's movements nationally and forest workers movements nationally.
And so that law provides a sort of legal pathway for indigenous people, for Adivasis to stake ownership over their communal, their collective land, and then also the land that they've been using in the forest to grow crops, for example.
So I was helping communities access and utilize those resources, those legal resources, which were.
Which were, you know, delivered to them through other movements.
[00:12:46] Speaker A: That reminds me of the work of the late Father Stan Swami, the jesuit priest who died in prison a couple of years ago.
[00:12:53] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:12:53] Speaker A: Helping out people to understand their rights, which they do have many legal rights under the indian law, but they just have no comprehension of what those rights are.
[00:13:05] Speaker B: Yeah. Yep. Yeah. Doctor Swami was. Was, or Stan Swami was. Was working in similar sort of movement circles that I was connected to while I was in central India, in Chhattisgarh state, which is in central India.
Yeah. And I think to get to your other question about the plight of indigenous people or at us, he's like, Stan Swami was at the helm of. Of sort of making public their conditions and making the public care about indigenous people. And, you know, Adivasis comprise about 8% of the indian population, but so many of the people I know in urban India have no idea what their living conditions are like or what kind of challenges that they face, largely because they have been pushed to the periphery of the city and of even rural areas historically. So, yeah, I mean, they're facing a lot of the same issues that poor people in India are facing more broadly. Food insecurity, lack of access to clean water and land.
But then I think more in a more sort of existential threat, there are massive projects to. I mean, there have been massive initiatives going since, you know, the 1990s, early 1990s, when the indian economy liberalized to essentially transfer their land in to corporations. And this is being done, you know, largely illegally or using legal loopholes without the consent and input of these communities. And so, you know, the land, which is like the. Literally the only resource that they have to depend on, especially because they are typically excluded from the formal labor market and, you know, from wealth accumulation, that one resource is being taken from them, and it's a crisis. It is a crisis that many people are trying to avert.
[00:15:29] Speaker A: Well, thank you for sharing that. And 8% of the population, that must be, by rough calculation, probably 250 to 300 million people, if I'm not mistaken. But moving a little bit closer to the core of our main topic, I understand that one of your current major projects, this work in India with Adabasis, is some years back, but currently you're working on a book, if I'm not mistaken, that deals with the intersection of caste and hindu nationalism. And we're definitely going to touch more specifically on hindu nationalism, especially how it relates to us here in America, in a short little while. But first, I'm hoping you can share a little bit about that project. And I mean specifically, you know, maybe first for our listeners, can you just briefly give us the dictionary definition according to the Samantha Dictionary of Caste and offended nationalism, and then touch on this issue that you're working on of how are they connected? Why are they connected? Why does it matter?
[00:16:42] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, I think it's a huge, huge question. I'll try to be brief, but, hey.
[00:16:51] Speaker A: If you can give us the 15 2nd version.
[00:16:54] Speaker B: Okay, I'll try. So the hindu nationalists have historically been a movement that has drawn disproportionately from the upper caste sections of hindu society.
And within that, brahmins who are at the very top of the caste hierarchy have assumed a disproportionate amount of leadership roles within that movement. And it is also, you know, in its writings and in its, you know, ideology has justified the caste system and its various aspects. And so, you know, it's. It's considered, you know, a castist movement by many and.
And, you know, an upper caste movement. So, you know, one of the challenges, I guess, from, from the perspective of the hindu nationalists, is how do we, you know, overcome this perception and how.
[00:17:52] Speaker A: Do we actually, especially. Sorry to interrupt, but especially considering that the vast majority of the indian population is not uppercast.
[00:18:00] Speaker B: Exactly. And so, you know, the prop. The dilemma for them is like an electoral one, in part because, you know, they, they need the support from the, you know, entire hindu community in order to win elections and to sustain their electoral dominance. But then at the same time, they, they also have this longstanding preoccupation with lower caste people converting away from Hinduism to Islam or Christianity. And so that's.
And the reason why they have converted historically has been because of the, because of the caste system and the way that caste has been so oppressive. And so they, the hindu nationalists are trying to kind of consolidate its base among the middle and lower caste communities.
And. Yeah, and so my research is kind of on, like, how, how is it that they have largely succeeded in that endeavor, at least for the time being? You know, the Hindu Nationalist Party, the Bhartiya Janata Party, BJP, has, you know, established itself as the party that receives the highest proportion of lower caste votes, or at least SC, or scheduled caste valid votes in the country. And, you know, that's a real puzzle. And my research is sort of looking at that question in two different national contexts. So I look at the state of Kerala and the state of Uttar Pradesh.
[00:19:36] Speaker A: Okay, well, that's fascinating. And it sounds like particularly important work. I mean, as we're moving to discussing this report, we're going to talk some about hindu nationalist violence. And my understanding is that although, as you mentioned, the hindu nationalist movement has largely been led by upper castes, dominated by upper castes, that when it comes to the actual violence in the streets, many of the, if not most of the foot soldiers tend to be drawn from the lower castes or even from the dalit community. And they are the ones who actually end up, if anybody does, they're the ones who ends up. Who end up getting thrown under the bus.
[00:20:18] Speaker B: Absolutely.
[00:20:20] Speaker A: Well, jumping then, straight into this new report, which is by an organization called Severa. The report is titled the Global VHPs Trail of Violence, which is quite a evocative name. So what can you tell us about Severa, Samantha? And can you share briefly about the report? You know, why do you think that there's a need for it? Of course, you certainly do. As you. You wrote an article about it. And what makes it different? This report.
[00:20:55] Speaker B: Yeah. So Savera is a new organization that I believe was formed to build a sort of multiracial and interfaith coalition of organizations that can resist the rising tide of supremacy, what they call supremacist politics, and in particular, focus on the indian american community and how the indian american community is getting implicated in supremacist politics, not just hindu supremacy, which is what the bulk of the report is about, but also white supremacy.
And so Saveira is kind of a response to this phenomenon and trying to sort of unite different organizations, either. That's like jewish organizations, Black Lives matter organizations, along with indian american and south asian organizations, to fight against this crisis, this problem of rising supremacy.
And then you asked about the significance of the report.
[00:22:12] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:22:13] Speaker B: Right. So the report is very important.
It's a kind of chronicle of the.
The VHPA Vishwa Hindu Parishad of America, which is the US based wing of the Vishwa Hindu Parshat, which is one of the leading organizations in the hindu supremacist movement in India.
And it kind of talks about not only the ways in which the VHPA has supported the rising, you know, the consolidation of hindu nationalism in India and hindu nationalist or hindu supremacist violence, but also how it is becoming a significant player in the american far right ecosystem.
[00:23:11] Speaker A: Okay. Which is certainly a twist, the one most would probably not have seen coming.
Well, I really love this report. Came out a couple of months ago, I believe, or I think it may have been in January. And, you know, as you were commenting on the significance of it from your perspective, from my perspective, I've written about both the VHP and the VHP A, and I've seen plenty of other writings from others about both of those organizations. But this is definitely the first time that I've ever seen something so comprehensive about the VHP America and so well put together. And as we move on, I just wanted to quote a few things from the report, because I really particularly loved these words from the conclusion, where in the conclusion of the report, it says, and, boy, this is, if you listen to it, it's not good. It says, both the VHP in India and its american wing act in clear contrast to these principles of pluralism, multiculturalism, et cetera. The harms caused by the VHP America have left an indelible impact, not just on communities in India and its diaspora, but the broader american political landscape as well, where it has platformed extremists, attacked progressive movements and civil society actors. And I can vouch for that, being one of the civil society actors who's been attacked by the BHPA and collaborated with other supremacist and anti democratic forces. Us civil society and political actors must be clear in seeing the global VHP as a supremacist, anti democratic force and a key part of the global far right. And that is so excellently succinct, but it is also quite scary. So, Samantha, can you tell me, tell our listeners about the VHP? You hinted at it. It's the Viswa Hindu parashad.
What does that mean? And what is it? What has it done in India? I mean, especially with this whole violence thing. How influential is it in India, specifically?
[00:25:32] Speaker B: Yeah, well, the VHP, let's start with its founding. So the VHP was founded in 1964, and it was started by the then RSS leader, Ms. Goldwarker and his colleague, SS Abde.
[00:25:52] Speaker A: The RSS being the original hindu nationalist paramilitary organization in India, correct?
[00:25:58] Speaker B: Yes. And it's also the progenitor of the Sangh Parivar, which is the larger network of hindu supremacist organizations that includes political parties, movements, trade unions, nonprofits, etcetera, thousands of organizations spread across the country.
And so Gulwarker, the founder of VHP, he's really one of the key thinkers in the hindu fascist fold who's credited with solidifying the understanding of Hindutva or the hindu supremacist worldview. And in his writings, he sort of praises the Nazis in Germany and Hitler for unifying the Germans through.
Through their extermination of the semitic races. And he deeply believed that India can learn from the experience of Nazi Germany and that minorities in India, specifically Christians and Muslims, should be treated similar to how Jews were treated under the Nazis.
And so while at least initially, the VHPs agenda didn't foreground its sort of genocidal intentions, it presented itself as more of a, you know, a movement that aimed to unite Hindus or regenerate hindu pride.
[00:27:34] Speaker A: And I think thats in the name, isnt it, that the english translation would be something along the lines of global Hindu.
What is it? Parashad. Vishwahindu parashad.
[00:27:51] Speaker B: I'm blanking.
[00:27:53] Speaker A: Yeah, I know this myself, but.
[00:28:00] Speaker B: It can be translated to, I guess, assembly or council.
[00:28:03] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, I think it's Global Hindu Council. Global Hindu Council, I believe.
[00:28:08] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
I just heard the term so many times that I just kind of liked. But, yeah. So what I was saying is that the initial impetus for the VHP was to create a global council for Hindus, as the name implies, and it also sort of broadly included Sikhs and Buddhists within its sort of the scope of its potential base or its community.
But as I was mentioning earlier, the core beliefs of the founder, Goldwalker, were really the driving motivations behind the founding of this organization. And they would manifest in the organization's later campaigns.
So, you know, as I said, the VHP is founded in 1964, but, you know, fast forward to the 1980s. And that's really sort of when it's more aggressive and vitriolic campaigns take off. And the most prominent of those is the Rahm Janma Boomli campaign, or the campaign to build a hindu temple at the alleged birthplace of the hindu deity Rama.
And the VHP was central to this movement, to the founding of this movement, although it would later draw in the BJP, which is founded in 1980, and members of the RSS and the wider sort of network of hindu fascists.
And it really sort of culminates in the early nineties when the BJP and the VHP initiated a sort of like north India wide campaigning in 1990 and in 1992, this campaigning leads to a mob of VHP and RSS members going to the site of the site where they plan to build this hindu temple, which is also the site of a historic mosque called the Babri Masjid. It's a 16th century mosque and it culminates in 1992 with a mobile demolishing.
[00:30:57] Speaker A: I believe, if I'm not mistaken, I'm several hundred thousand people.
[00:31:01] Speaker B: Correct.
And within a span of just several hours, they are able to bring down the mosque.
And this is a really sort of monumental moment in indian history.
It's not just limited to that moment of the demolition of the mosque. It triggers, essentially, it triggers a series of religious riots and carnage that lasts for several months and spans the entire country. And it results in the death of more than 2000 people, the majority of whom were, of course, Muslim.
And this is really kind of seen as a watershed moment in the larger arc of hindu nationalist growth.
And one of the reasons for that is because the BJP, which, as I said, was founded in 1980, prior to this campaign, almost had no electoral support. So in the federal elections of, I think, 84, the BJP just won two seats in the indian parliament.
But by 1989, when the Rahm Janmagumi campaign is already in full swing, the BJP's strength had grown to 85 seats.
And then within the span of ten years, it doubles its seat share. And that directly coincides with the time that the BHP and the BJP are carrying out this violent demolition of this mosque and participating in these religious riots and massacres.
So yeah, in that way, the BHP has been absolutely central to the rise of the BJP and the consolidation of the BJP. But then it also has been responsible for perpetuating a sort of low level of violence against the minority communities, particularly Muslims.
[00:33:26] Speaker A: So it's not just the big, glitzy, glamorous massacres.
There's more simmering stuff happening.
[00:33:34] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. And there's actually been a really interesting piece of research that came out recently about how there's, in the last ten or 15 years, there's been a shift from large scale sort of like carnages or pogroms, to lynchings.
And the VHP and its offshoot organizations, such as the Badrang Dal, have been central to this process.
The research that I'm mentioning is by Ashitos varsity, and he's also published a piece in the Journal of Democracy in which he and his co author compared this situation in India to the Jim Crow era in the south, in the US south.
And like, particularly the comparison with lynchings, like how lynchings are used in both contexts to subordinate a population that it can't necessarily expel from the country because they're just.
There are too many Muslims in India for that to be feasible.
[00:35:02] Speaker A: So keep them permanently calm.
[00:35:05] Speaker B: Right, exactly.
Keep them cowed, keep them in a subordinate position, like second class citizenship.
And so, yeah, the VHP really is central to, you know, sustaining this violence.
They do that in a number of different ways. They have many different organizations that they work with in, you know, sustaining this process.
And, you know, some of them are working on just spreading conspiracy theories about the minority population. So the report actually does a good job of outlining all the different conspiracy theories, and most of them are just totally absurd, but they typically come under this larger umbrella of jihad. So there's love jihad, which is essentially that Muslims are targeting hindu women and abducting them and raping them.
There's land jihad that Muslims are intentionally trying to take over all the land in India. And there's some that are even more crazy. So, like, there's tuq jihad, which means that Muslims are trying to spit on Hindus to give them diseases.
There's flood jihad, which refers to this conspiracy that Muslims are actually trying to, um, produce floods to destroy India.
[00:36:46] Speaker A: Particularly, uh, you know, with conspiracy theories, one always expects them to be, um, somewhat absurd. Uh, but the level of absurdity in the case of the hindu national conspiracy theories does, uh, tends to be off the charts, uh, if at least in my impression. But, you know, Samantha, all of that, that is all, you know, far away on the other side of the globe over there in India, you know, and as we move towards the american side of things, looking into what does this have to do with America. If anything, you did pen this recent article for truth out, this media outlet, and in the article, you warned that, I quote, the Hindu supremacist movement is infiltrating uS politics. And those are pretty strong words.
Of course, some people in America, they are actually familiar with the hindu nationalist or supremacist movement which is operating over there in India. But it really seems that very few people here in this country know about the existence, let alone alone the activities, of hindu nationalism in America. However, this report does say that hindu supremacy's century long and frequently violent history includes over five decades of patient institution building in the United States.
So before we move on to unpacking some of these things about the VHP, America, apparently there is a VHP not just in India, but in America.
Why is there a VHP in America? And can you just kind of give us a brief encapsulation of why they're here and what they're doing?
[00:38:32] Speaker B: Yeah. So the VHPA is essentially the American wing of the VHP. And just like the VHP, the VHP was also formed by Ms. Goldwarker, and it was formed about six years after the VHP. So that timeline just kind of shows you how.
How even, like, early on 1970, there were concerns about making, or there was an ambition to make us a kind of ground zero for spreading hindu supremacy, like, Hindutva views. And they really wanted to unite Americans living, Indians living in America around the shared hindu identity.
And the VHPA is essentially the largest and most powerful chapter of the VHP outside of India, and it comprises of 21 branches that are spread across the US, and it has become chapter based organization of sorts. Yeah, exactly.
[00:39:54] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:39:56] Speaker B: Or branches. I don't remember what they call them, but they have units that are operative in different cities, different states. There's actually one in Maryland. So it's a very powerful organization, and in every practical way, like, you know, they are, I guess, legally distinct organizations. And sometimes the VHPA likes to claim that it's independent from the VHP, but, I mean, it's obvious to anyone who's observing their history and their trajectory that they're walking in tandem. Right. They're working for a common agenda and their talking points, their ideology mirrors one another.
Yeah. In every practical sense, they're like sister organizations and.
Yeah. And so the VHPA has worked to promote all of the major causes of the VHP.
That includes the demolition of the Babri Masjid.
That includes the.
[00:41:10] Speaker A: Yeah, and I wanted to touch on that a little bit, because now, as you mentioned they are legally separate organizations, and I've heard that frequently, as I recall, used by them and other related hindu nationalist organizations to try and slip out of being associated with the group's organizations back in India. But when you look at them, you look at their activities, trajectory, their agenda, it seems to be pretty much in lockstep with what the sister or parent organization back in India is doing and has envisioned.
And so with that, you mentioned the baby masjid. And, I mean, the report goes into quite a bit of detail about the global VHP, but then specifically zeroing in on the VHP America and how it played a role. And some of the biggest incidents of anti minority violence in India, such as like that 1992 mob destruction of the Babri mosque, but then others as well, this pogrom in Gujarat in 2002, this pogrom in Odisha in 2008, which was against christians, and even in 2020, this pogrom in Delhi. And so I wanted to ask as far as, especially looking into the question of is the VHP America connected to the VHP?
Especially that question, but would you mind unpacking a little bit of that for us? Explain practically, what has VHP America done from here in the US to contribute or to play a role in the violence over there in India? Obviously, they're not the ones who are actually the foot soldiers on the streets committing violence.
[00:42:59] Speaker B: Right, right. And I mean, as you put it, the VHPA likes to emphasize its independence from the VHP when it's strategic. Right. And so. And also for probably legal reasons. So, you know, the VHP has been put on a CIA list of militant religious organizations in the past. And then, you know, it was also banned by the indian government for a while after it demolished the Babri Masjid for a very short while.
And so, yeah, I mean, I think it makes. It's obvious why they would, in certain moments, want to emphasize their separateness. But, I mean, it's just like how the VHP, when it was first formed, it wanted to say it was independent from the RSS, who had become notorious for its assassination of Mahatma Gandhi. Right. Even though, you know, the RSS leader of the chief of the RSS was the founder of the VHP. And so, you know, I mean, it's like, it doesn't fool anyone, but it's like.
[00:44:08] Speaker A: It's like if one organization gets into trouble, then you found another one that's led by all the same people with the whole.
[00:44:17] Speaker B: You can. You know, your hands are clean, you can pretend like your hands, you can feel that you're you know, that you are unscathed by these violent legacies, or at least project that to your associates and your colleagues or whatever. But, of course, everyone knows that blood is on their hands. And so in terms of the VHPA's role in the hindu supremacist violence.
Well, yeah, that, as you mentioned, it goes back a long way.
I mean, in the context of the Ram Janmabhumi movement, this was an issue that was central to the VHPA's functioning, and they've hosted many, many events on this. They praised the demolition of the mosque in many, many forums. The VHPA's president, Mahesh Mehta, he gave a speech at Columbia University that was, I think, organized by the Hindu Students Council that essentially justified the mosque demolition and said that there was no wrong that was committed, including the pogroms that followed the mosque. They've been very, very important in kind of legitimating.
[00:45:48] Speaker A: So, in America. Oh, yeah, legitimating or whitewashing what's happening throughout american society.
[00:45:53] Speaker B: Right. And including in places like Columbia University, you know, where, you know, they continuously try to infiltrate the academic space as well.
[00:46:04] Speaker A: So, you know, and they've done this in terms of playing a role in the violence or legitimizing the violence with other incidents.
After the 1992 mosque destruction. Excuse me, destruction as well.
[00:46:22] Speaker B: Yeah. So in the. As you mentioned, the 2008 anti christian violence in Odisha, and then the 2020 riots in Delhi, or I should say pogroms in Delhi, there were VHPA members who justified these acts. So one of the examples that's given in the report is, after the 2020 riots, one of the leaders of the Houston chapter of the VHPA helped raise funding, or helped raise funds. $115,000 for. For the architect of the Delhi violence.
[00:47:09] Speaker A: Oh, okay.
Well, here in America, and the architect of the Delhi violence, Kapil Mishra, I can't remember offhand if he was MP or MLA, that is, a state level legislator or federal level.
But Kapil Mishra, back in India, here in. Here in Houston, they were raising funds for this man, Mishra, who instigated the violence over there in India.
[00:47:38] Speaker B: That's right. Yeah. Kapil Mishra was a member of the Delhi Legislative assembly and was one of the key architects of the Delhi violence, in which two thirds of the victims were Muslims. And the VHPA, also the.
The national VHPA had another fundraiser that benefited the hindu victims of the Delhi violence, which were only about a third of the people who were killed and completely neglected to mention that majority of the people were killed are Muslims, and also the context in which this happened, which is the consolidation of hindu supremacy in India.
And so, yeah, my point is to say that not only do they, you know, to not only do they legitimize through speech the acts of the hindu nationalists in India, but they also directly fund the efforts on the ground.
And now, like, part of. Part of this funding can happen is made possible because as I mentioned before, the VHP operates through thousands of organizations. It's not just the VHP showing up and doing this riot relief stuff, handing out this money. It's lots and lots of local nonprofits that have been started explicitly by the VHP to.
To receive the funds that are coming from America and other places and deliver them to their supporters, reward their supporters for taking risks in picking up weapons and murdering their muslim neighbors.
You have to give them some sort of carrot in, you know, in taking these risks, otherwise they're not going to do it again. So they need these nonprofit organizations to dole out some sort of, you know, reward. And.
And this is very typical of the way that the hidden nationals operate, you know, nationally, not just the BHP. So.
[00:50:01] Speaker A: Well, it sounds like it's. It's like a two way street, you know, where both the VHP America, they're supporting the activities of the hindu nationalist movement in India at the same time that the hindu nationalist movement in India. I want to get to this, is apparently coming over here and using groups like the VHP America as their kind of arm to interfere in american politics and society. But on that, as far as the coming over here aspect, continuing a little bit with that thread of what role has VHP America played in contributing to or legitimizing this violence over there in India? I want to dwell a little bit on this allegation in the report that the VHPA regularly platforms extremists.
I mean, in relation to that question, what kinds of people are they platforming?
One of the people I'm aware of, although I'm sure our listeners may not be, is this lady Sadhvi Ratambra. And, you know, when they do that, like, do you think that that platforming of those extremists from India over here in America is dangerous for our social fabric or our democratic ethos? What kind of impact do you think it has on us here in the US when that happens?
[00:51:30] Speaker B: Yeah, well, the hindu supremacists have long shown admiration for far right currents in the US, and particularly white supremacists.
So that's one kind of extremist that they. Or extremist organization or movement that they collaborate with.
[00:51:54] Speaker A: And I want to ask you about that one a little bit. But what about the indian ones that they bring over from India?
[00:52:02] Speaker B: Right. So there are Indian Americans, and then they're Indians.
Both are, you know, working in the United States to. To advance the far right agenda. But, like, in terms of the BHPA members, you know, the indian american members, you know, there's Krishna Gudipati, who. Who actually took part in the January 6 insurrection.
[00:52:31] Speaker A: It's the american member that took part in the insurrection at the Capitol.
[00:52:36] Speaker B: Correct.
And, you know, he continuously associates in far right circles.
He was seen at a VHP event on Kashmir in DC, which featured speakers from islamophobic organizations such as the Middle East Forum.
So he's one of the people then. The report also talks about Manga Anantamullah, who has been part of the VHPA's Chingari project and a part of the republican party.
And.
[00:53:19] Speaker A: Well, not that. Not that I'm a big fan of the Republican Party, but how is she particularly extremist?
Being a Republican doesn't automatically make one an extremist.
[00:53:29] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, sure.
[00:53:29] Speaker A: Well, she's part of, although more and more these days when someone make that argument.
[00:53:34] Speaker B: That's true. Well, the Republican Party party is certainly moving to the far right, especially, you know, in the MAGA Trump era. But this person, Nantamullah, she has kind of billed herself as a Trump aligned politician and is now contesting elections in Virginia.
And she has been crucial in the larger republican or far right agenda to dismantle affirmative action.
[00:54:10] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:54:10] Speaker B: Okay.
And worked with an organization called students for fair admissions, which was essential in this 2023 Supreme Court decision, which ruled that affirmative action protections were unconstitutional.
So, you know, and she also, like, regularly promotes conspiracy theories about, you know, like, demographic kind of theories of that.
[00:54:40] Speaker A: Whole white supremacist or white genocide conspiracy.
[00:54:44] Speaker B: Theory, but she frames her conspiracy theories to be relevant to Indians. So it's really interesting because that kind of language is obviously detrimental to her own base, like her own indian base, framing immigrants as a plague or existential threat to America. Yeah. Right. So obviously, there's a major contradiction there.
And then the other thing that this cohort of Indians is really trying to do is win Indian Americans over to the Republican Party. So bring them out of the democratic party and.
And incorporate them into the Republican Party. And so there's, like, several organizations and hashtags that have been devoted to solely this.
[00:55:45] Speaker A: And I've anecdotally seen that and seen articles by hindu nationalist personalities in America advocating for that kind of a mass shift from the democratic party to the Republican Party over the past several years.
And one of the major reasons that they advocate for it seems to basically be that the democratic party is somehow intrinsically hindu phobic or somehow intrinsically is anti India.
And that gets to, I wanted to ask, because your article, in truth out, is talking from the very headline about how the hindu nationalist movement is somehow infiltrating us politics. And can you delve into that a little bit? Like, how are they infiltrating us politics? And I imagine that's related to this issue of this attempts to have this mass migration from the left to the right as far as partisan politics in America.
[00:56:52] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, I think the Republican Party is a great example of that. We have people like Vivek Ramaswamy and Nikki Haley at the national level who are Indian Americans that are deeply on the far right, and then Ramaswamy in particular, being one of the characters that have really advanced this notion of. Of hindu identity being aligned with the far right and Trump in particular.
[00:57:25] Speaker A: And interject there, Ramaswamy particularly has actual relationships with the BHP America, or at least with some of their local arms.
[00:57:36] Speaker B: Correct.
But I think it's also important to note that this isn't something that is exclusive to the Republican Party and that the hindu nationalists have been savvy enough to. To also approach Democrats who seem to be open to their talking points and their agenda, particularly Tulsi Gabbard, even Ro Khanna, who's considered a more progressive side of the Democratic Party.
They have been very friendly and taken contributions from the VHPA or VHP allied organizations.
Even Maryland's governor, Wes Moore, democratic governor Wes Moore and his lieutenant governor, Aruna Miller, have depended heavily on these groups for their campaign finance while denying their relationship to these groups.
So there's a deep sort of penetration that has occurred on all sides of the political spectrum.
[00:58:44] Speaker A: You know, presidential candidates, members of Congress, top lieutenant governor of a state.
That is relative. And on both sides of the political spectrum.
[00:58:56] Speaker B: Exactly. And you have worked extensively on this, Peter, so you can talk.
[00:59:02] Speaker A: You're my interview subject, Samantha, so I'm just trying to play dumb and hear what your thoughts are on this. I mean, with that, basically, it sounds like the VHP America, that they probably have a very strong ideological affinity with the far right, but their equal opportunity when it comes to attempting to influence american politics, I mean, they'll play ball with Democrats or Republicans. They're not picky as long as they can make inroads in whatever field they're playing in. I mean, from your perspective with this infiltration, you know, federal level, state level, what do you. I mean, you have, if I'm not mistaken, you study political science as well as sociology.
What do you think that they, and we'll caveat this, you know, to note that the VHP of America itself as an organization is not supporting anybody politically, but they do have political wings, and their members are highly politically active, generally in what appears to be a coordinated manner. So, Samantha, what do you think a political science perspective is the real concern here, especially. I mean, I'll be honest with you. You know, Vivek ran for president, but he lost.
And we have one person, Aruna Miller, who's a lieutenant governor in a state. But out of 50 states, you know, there's maybe three or four members of Congress who have some stronger, some lesser affiliation, association with the VHB America or other internationalist groups. But I mean, considering that, like, what do you think is the concern here with their presence in politics?
[01:00:58] Speaker B: Well, let me just back up a little bit just the conversation for this in terms of how they are infiltrating american politics. And I think it's also important to add to this conversation as context the fact that there has been a kind of sea change at the level of us foreign policy with respect to India's role in what the US sees as its own interests in Asia, essentially. And I think that has been probably more critical than any other factor in the larger legitimation of the hindu nationalist project.
And that really sort of began with the Obama administration, under which Modi, who was formerly blacklisted from coming to the US for ten years because of his role in the 2002 Gujarat pogroms, was rehabilitated, and then massive arms deals were signed with India. And then this continued under Trump and now under Biden.
So the fact that there are billions of dollars worth of weapons deals happening with India and India is now seen increasingly as a bulwark against China and as a partner in US's rivalry with China. That has largely stymied efforts to check the spread of hindu nationalism, not just within the US, but also it's affecting our ability to do anything that the US could do to influence India's regime to change course.
And we've seen this at the highest level, where the president watches incredible violence being done to farmers and to Muslims and to christians and is completely unable to say anything. I mean, even, I think the most egregious example of that was the recent assassination by the indian government of canadian citizen.
[01:03:26] Speaker A: Yes, yes.
[01:03:27] Speaker B: The US administration really not being able to do anything about that because they're so concerned with making sure that India is a client, is a junior partner to us hegemony. And I think that's a really important context for understanding why our politicians are so spineless when it comes to India.
[01:03:56] Speaker A: So it's not just the influence, of course, of these internationalist entities or politicians, internationalist linked politicians, but, of course, the broader environment in which we find ourselves.
[01:04:12] Speaker B: Exactly. And then, yeah, going to your point, your question about, you know, why should we? Why should we care? You know, why is this? Why does this matter if there's only, you know, a handful of hindu nationalists aligned politicians in power?
And, you know, just to correct what you said about me being a political scientist. I'm not a political scientist. I did my undergraduate degree in political science. But look at the world largely through the lens of political sociology. And that is related in the sense that I actually think that the biggest threat that we're facing from this ascendance of hindu nationalists in the US is one which it penetrates much beyond the electoral space. And what individual politicians are doing, I think that is, you know, a larger.
That the hindu national's presence has penetrated civil society and is, you know, embedded.
[01:05:17] Speaker A: Beyond just the hindu community.
[01:05:19] Speaker B: Right. Much beyond the hindu community. And so, like, you know, I gave the example of Anantamullah, who has worked with far right organizations and anti affirmative action organizations to defeat affirmative action.
And then, you know, there are examples which pertain to, you know, the recent efforts to make caste a protected category under various states and localities civil rights laws. And the VHP A was. Was directly involved in trying to defeat, or in defeating, successfully defeating SB 403, which would have made caste a protective in California.
And I think the way in which they're now, like, not only just, you know, making caste statements about people in India or justifying caste based violence in India, but they're also now, you know, making it impossible or, you know, contributing to a movement. I should say, not making impossible, but contributing to a movement which seeks to delegitimize the rightful claims of caste discrimination in the US.
[01:06:40] Speaker A: Okay.
[01:06:42] Speaker B: Yeah. It's not just in this legal battle, but also there's another example that is mentioned in the report of the VHPA defending Baps, which is this temple complex in Jersey that was essentially illegally trafficking Dalit workers into the US and paying them, I think, $1.20 an hour to work in their temples.
[01:07:12] Speaker A: I think I'm familiar with that case. I think they also confiscated the passports of these workers, kind of confine them to the premises and that sort of thing.
[01:07:23] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely shady stuff. And. And the VHPA was defending baps. So, I mean, they're. They're. They're directly contributing to, um, you know, making sure that casteism flourishes in the US and also, um, trafficking of human laborers. You know, like, these are. These are things that should concern everyone, like, way beyond, you know, those who are focused on South Asia.
They're legitimizing and strengthening a longstanding agenda of the far right ethno nationalist movement in the US. And the fact that they're working in the organizations and movements that are being built by these islamophobes, like Robert Spencer.
[01:08:16] Speaker A: Yeah, so I want to shift over to that. But, I mean, as you're talking about this, it does sound like one can certainly make a very strong argument for how the influence of the hindu nationalist movement in american politics, getting people into office, especially Congress, can be impactful as far as US India foreign policy when it comes to how they might help to keep the US turning a blind eye towards any human rights violations going on over in India, many of which are being committed by the VHP.
But then it sounds like you're saying. I mean, it's very convincing to me that almost just as worrisome, if not maybe more worrisome, is for us as Americans, is what impact they can have are having on american social politics.
You mentioned the role they played in opposing the anti caste bill in California, and they've opposed others as well, you know, defending Baps and the alleged trafficking of humans.
Also. I mean, as I'm sure you're aware, that they were one of the only organizations to come out in opposition a couple of years ago, lobbying against, through their political arms, lobbying against this Islamophobia act in US Congress, introduced by Congresswoman Ilhan Omar. And I can't remember the person who introduced in partnership with her. And I say they were one of the only organizations to actively oppose that.
One of the only other organizations to join them in opposition was Middle East Forum, if I'm not mistaken, which I may be mixing up my islamophobes, but if I'm not mistaken, Middle east forum, which is linked to Robert Spencer. So can you tell us a little bit about that, Samantha? Because, I mean, to lay out the groundwork for this just briefly. The report states that the VHPA often positions itself as an exclusively religious organization that represents a minority community, Hindus in the United States this positioning, which draws on the very protections won by social movements to build a multicultural, pluralistic society, offers the VHPA an easy point of access into us civil society. But that multicultural, pluralistic society aspect, that is something that VHPA really relies on and falls back on, I've seen in order to, as the report says, get an easy point of access into us civil society. However, as some of what we've been talking about has already touched on, VHBA seems to be working hand in glove with kind of the biggest Islamophobia lobby in America, as well as the far right. And I mean, I mean, to quote from the report, and is today, the VHPA is today exhibiting deep affinities and collaborations with white supremacist projects in America, which is a little bit of. I mean, we've already talked about these kind of contradictions you mentioned with Anantamullah and the, the odd contradictions there where you have Indian Americans working to advance white supremacist projects. So can you, as we begin to wrap up, can you dwell on that a little bit? What is VHBA doing? You mentioned Robert Spencer. You've mentioned Middle east forum. What are they doing with the Seoul Islamophobia lobby and even white supremacists.
[01:12:19] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, just to correct something you said, like Robert Spencer, he's known for his organization that he co founded with Pamela Gellner, known as the Stop Islamization of America. And he also has a blog called Jihad Watch.
[01:12:36] Speaker A: Yes. Yes. I knew I was mixing up my islamophobes.
[01:12:40] Speaker B: Yeah. And there's another one, Jamie Glazov.
He has a show called the Glasov Gang, and the parent company of that show has been designated as an SPLC hate organization. So these are just a couple of the examples that are prominent ones where the VHPA has actively collaborated, like publicly collaborated with rabid islamophobias. Rabid.
[01:13:17] Speaker A: Even up to and including people or groups which are designated as hate groups.
[01:13:22] Speaker B: Exactly. Okay.
Yeah. And I think, like, the choice language of the VHP and VHPA leaders, such as Babu Selen, for example, he's a VHP member, have been very convenient for these us based islamophobic organizations. So, like, at the convention that Robert Spencer and Gellner organized, there were VHP members present, and Babu Sealan was one of them. And he infamously said in that forum that Muslims are like rats, and they're also like bacteria. And if we don't kill the bacteria, the bacteria will kill us.
And these little sound bites, these horrific kind of choice phrases that they use are just so they're devoured by these far right islamophobic organizations in the US.
And so it makes them good, good coalition partners in their larger movement.
And, yeah, and it's quite terrifying. And I think it really sort of brings us back to why groups like Sevira are so critical, because the far right knows that it needs to build transnational alliances in order for it to win.
They know that they need to, you know, maybe look past their little differences that are actually big differences. Like, for example, the fact that, like.
[01:15:15] Speaker A: These white supremacists and Indian Americans on.
[01:15:19] Speaker B: The same stage, right, people who, like, benefited from affirmative action, like Nikki Haley, like, you know, advocating to dismantle any sort of, any sort of pro minority or anti racial discrimination kinds of policies.
But they look past those differences to solidify their global base.
And I think Saveira is recognizing that our enemies are doing that as a left. We also need to build strong relationships between groups that are fighting Zionism and ethnonationalism and racism and racist violence by police because that's really the only way that we're going to be able to provide a meaningful resistance to the global ethno nationalist compact.
[01:16:23] Speaker A: Well, and just to briefly comment on that strange dichotomy again of the, you know, I think most Americans have a difficult time wrapping their brains around it. Why white supremacists and, you know, people of color or immigrants. But when it comes to, you know, correct me if I'm wrong, I don't know if you agree with me when it comes to ethnonationalism, you have some expertise in studying this.
My impression is that ethnonationalists don't have a problem so much with working with others for an ultimate goal of, we each have our own individual place where nobody else is welcome. You know, the hindu nationalists here in America are happy to work towards work with white supremacists in America as long as it contributes to an ultimate goal, for instance, of creating a hindu state where only Hindus are welcome. And the white supremacists happy to work with hindu supremacists who share an ethno nationalist vision of their own, as long as it contributes to the white supremacist agenda of whites only America.
[01:17:36] Speaker B: Yeah, they're united around their common hatred of, you know, of vulnerable people and their support for, you know, global hegemonic projects, US hegemony and hindu supremacist hegemony can coexist in their, you know, ideal world. And it is coexist currently, it is coexisting right now with, you know, the ways in which the two regimes are very much aligned on their policy, on the israeli genocide of the palestinian people, for example.
So their global geopolitical interests at least seem to be aligned in the eyes of the elite.
Of course, you and I know that it's not in the interests of the actual citizens who live in both countries.
[01:18:34] Speaker A: Exactly. Well, so, Samantha, this report, it warns that VHP America, you know, as I just quoted a few minutes ago, it plays on its ability to portray itself as part of a multicultural, pluralistic society. But as we've just been discussing, it's also played a role in at least legitimizing anti minority violence in India. It platforms extremists here in the US. It puts out virulent anti muslim rhetoric. It's casteist. And it's also, apparently, as we've just been talking, collaborating with the US far right hate ecosystem, them, to quote the report. So with all of that put together in this, you know, handy little package, this expose, you know, as we, as we conclude, you know, how, if, you know, how, has the response been to the report so far?
I mean, is it, is it only preaching to the choir at this point? Where is it going and where do you think it should be going?
[01:19:36] Speaker B: I don't know how the report has been received beyond, you know, how people have responded to my article in truthout, which has been very positive. Actually, quite a few folks who are starting to work on building solidarity with south asian marginalized people, they're using my piece and the report as well. That's only a very small sample size.
I think that from what I've seen, at least I'm not a member of Sevira, but it seems like Sevira has achieved a lot since the report came out. For example, about a week ago or so, there was an announcement that 100 organizations have signed onto a statement that was authored by Sevira about hindu nationalism and essentially condemning the growth of hindu nationalism within american and global society.
And I think that statement, it's on their website. You can check it out. But it's.
[01:20:51] Speaker A: Yeah, I've actually seen, it goes a.
[01:20:53] Speaker B: Long way towards to kind of creating a basis for this shared solidarity that I've been talking about.
So I think that that's kind of where the report should go. Like it. I think it should go towards helping groups that want to build this kind of internationalist solidarity. Doesn't have to be south asian groups. It can be all kinds of organizations.
They can read this report and take its wisdom and its sort of broader lessons and apply it to their own local circumstances, like figure out where the local BHPA chapters are and who organizations are and where they're hosting meetings in your own locality and figure out how you can disrupt them.
And use the report as a tool to educate people on how the BHP is operating and what kinds of far right kinds of, you know, causes and, you know, ideologies are driving their agenda.
[01:22:05] Speaker A: Yeah, I think it's an excellent tool, you know, especially for civil society and especially for anybody who is one of those people that doesn't already have that, that base of at least a little bit of pre knowledge on the issue really does a great job at getting somebody that might be ignorant on this up to speed quickly without putting their head underwater.
So wrapping up, concluding on a personal note, if we may, Samantha, like the forward, the forward in the report, it states that all of this, like what VHB America is doing and other groups, all of it, is creating, quote, deep fault lines within the indian american communities, most notably along the lines of religion and caste. And you're born and raised here in the US and you're in the indian american community. So I want to ask you from your perspective personally, are you experiencing these fault lines and where do you think these fault lines are going?
[01:23:10] Speaker B: Well, I've been sort of lucky in that regard that my, my family is, my family are not hindu nationalist supporters.
My dad is an atheist and kind of agnostic.
And I've been raised in that context. I haven't ever really been exposed to Hinduism, except for, you know, in my extended family when I go back to India and interact with them. But I think I've been, you know, sort of shielded from that in my own sort of family sphere. But, of course, because I'm also a public intellectual and I'm an activist, I am constantly trying to engage the larger, you know, hindu and indian american and south asian community more broadly. And of course, I'm seeing these fault lines everywhere.
I'm seeing, you know, lots of friends and comrades who, who've had to have either very difficult or, you know, fracturing conversations which have fractured their relationships with their family members. And, you know, I'm just trying to support people and having those conversations with their family and trying to push them and educate them to care and to not, you know, not just, like, bask in the glory of what they think is the new heights that India has reached under Modi and really understand what, think about what they're saying and try to read a little bit more. Try to think about the hundreds of millions of people for whom India has become a volatile place to live.
And I've had some successes with that. But I do think that really what is critical is building organizations and working towards concrete, winning, concrete demands of both our government disaffiliating from hindu nationalist organizations, trying to get our government to intervene about the rising power of hindu nationalism, and then additionally making sure that our civil society organizations, local schools and other organizations are not providing platforms for hindu nationalists. And I think your work has been really crucial for that as well. So I thank you for all that you've done in that regard.
[01:25:52] Speaker A: Thank you, Samantha. And thank you so much for offering your perspective and for this conversation and look forward to continuing in the future.
Any last thoughts?
[01:26:06] Speaker B: No, just I ask for people to read the report and join an organization that's fighting hindu nationalism.
[01:26:15] Speaker A: Read the report and join an organization that's fighting hindu nationalism. Thank you, Samantha.
[01:26:21] Speaker B: Thank you, Peter.
[01:26:23] Speaker A: Thank you for tuning in. If you liked what you heard, please remember to subscribe and follow for more to come as we look forward to dialoguing once again on DosA.
